Interview with Rob Sullivan on Leadership, Communication, and Burnout

Rob Sullivan is an international speaker, corporate trainer, and coach whose passion is helping people improve their presence, energy, listening, and communication. He is the author of two books: A Trek Within: Embracing Unexpected Truths and Getting Your Foot in the Door When You Don’t Have a Leg to Stand On. HRinsidr sat down with Rob to discuss leadership development, the roots of burnout, and the communication habits that can make or break a career.

HRinsidr: You train managers at every level. Where does leadership development most commonly break down?

Rob Sullivan: Companies tend to promote people who are performing well as individual contributors and then skip the training. I saw this firsthand early in my career at Leo Burnett in Chicago. After a couple of years, I was told I’d have two direct reports. I said, ‘I’ve never managed people—I need a class.’ The response was that there was no time for it. The logic was baffling: you’re willing to let me damage someone’s career because you won’t invest in basic training?

I still see this constantly. I bring managers into workshops—new managers, seasoned managers, managers of managers—and a striking number have never had a single class on how to lead people. The data backs this up: the number one reason people leave companies is that they don’t feel they’re developing, or their manager simply isn’t equipped to lead them. People leave their managers, not their companies.

HRinsidr: What does effective people development actually look like in practice?

Rob Sullivan: It starts with something deceptively simple: understanding what drives each person on your team and how they receive acknowledgement. Long before The Five Love Languages became a cultural touchstone, I was learning this the hard way. I had a manager who expressed appreciation through gifts—elaborate, generous gifts. But that wasn’t my language. A handwritten note saying ‘you make a difference here’ would have meant everything. The gift? I honestly don’t remember what happened to it.

When I was at Leo Burnett, I tried something with my shared secretary. I asked her: ‘What’s one task you’d rather never have to do?’ She was embarrassed to admit it, but she hated going down to the videotape duplicating department. I didn’t ask why. I just said, ‘Put it on my desk. I’ll handle it.’ You would have thought I’d given her an extra two weeks of vacation. That moment stayed with me. When you treat someone in the way they actually want to be treated, the impact is extraordinary.

HRinsidr: You’ve talked about the link between untapped skills and burnout. Can you explain that connection?

Rob Sullivan: I often ask employees in workshops: ‘How many of you have a skill you could contribute to this company, but have never had the opportunity?’ Almost every hand goes up—every time. That’s not a small problem.

At one global restaurant chain, a woman in an IT group said she loved taking machines apart and finding alternate uses for them. I immediately thought about how that chain’s biggest challenge with new products was avoiding capital expenditures across thousands of locations. Finding alternate uses for existing equipment was exactly the kind of thinking they needed. Her managers moved her to the new products team on the spot.

Here’s the core principle: most professional roles have elements that are either energizing or draining. The moment the draining outweighs the energizing, that’s the slope to burnout. It doesn’t always require a dramatic intervention. I knew a receptionist who was passionate about calligraphy. Her company hired an outside vendor every year to address holiday cards—something she would have loved to do and could have done brilliantly. That’s a missed opportunity on every level.

HRinsidr: Communication seems central to everything you’re describing. What are the most common gaps you see?

Rob Sullivan: There is almost always a gap between what someone said and what someone else heard. I was once brought in to coach a C-level executive on ‘presentation skills.’ When I reviewed her presentations in advance, I thought: she doesn’t have a presentation problem. So when we met, I asked what her understanding was of why we were there. She said, ‘It’s about how I come across.’ Then she added: ‘I am not a warm, fuzzy person. Please don’t try to turn me into someone who hugs people in the hallway.’

The real issue was her response to pushback. During a technical presentation, an audience member raised his hand and said, ‘I’m confused—what you said now seems to contradict what you said earlier.’ A fair point. Instead of acknowledging the confusion, she did what I call ‘the machine gun no’ which is rapid-fire corrections that left the man feeling publicly shot down. Her intention was entirely pure; she was just trying to clarify. But the impact was the opposite.

We worked on it. Two weeks later she emailed me: ‘I passed the CEO in the elevator. He said, “I don’t know what you’re doing differently, but I love it.”’ That’s the power of presence and intentional language.

HRinsidr: Are there specific language habits that quietly undermine credibility?

Rob Sullivan: Absolutely. One of the most common is the word ‘actually.’ When someone says, ‘Actually, that’s a great question,’ what they’ve unintentionally communicated is: ‘I wasn’t expecting you to say something intelligent.’ That’s almost never the intent—but our subconscious registers it anyway.

I also see a lot of hedging language—words like ‘maybe,’ ‘kinda,’ ‘a little bit,’ ‘sort of.’ I’ll watch managers open a team meeting by saying, ‘We’re going to kind of talk about this, and then maybe get into that.’ Just say: ‘We’re covering A, B, and C.’ Direct language signals confidence and makes the people around you feel at ease.

The same pattern shows up cross-culturally. I trained international trainers in London and challenged them to identify equivalents in their own languages. A German trainer came up afterward and said, ‘We use the word kurz (which means “short”) constantly. “I have a quick question,” “I have a quick request.”’ What it really signals is: ‘I know I’m bothering you and I’m sorry.’ Instead, try: ‘I’d love to get your perspective on something.’ Short, respectful, and it doesn’t minimize your presence before you’ve even started speaking.

HRinsidr: In our last conversation, you mentioned you observed something powerful about managers who model accountability publicly. Can you share that?

Rob Sullivan: I was once hired to observe 35 managers lead their team meetings and coach their direct reports. One pattern was unmistakable: teams mirror their manager’s style, for better or worse. The worst-performing team was led by the manager with the most significant communication issues which was lots of permission-seeking (‘if you don’t mind, I’d love to maybe…’), and his team carried that same tentativeness into every customer interaction.

But one manager did something I’ve never seen before or since. At the end of a coaching session, with me in the room, fifteen minutes after we’d met he looked at me and said, ‘I want you to give me feedback in front of my team member.’ His reasoning: ‘I want them to know what I’m working on. I want them to be able to hold me accountable. I want them to know I’m not perfect.’ None of the other 34 managers did that.

The response was immediate. His team member looked at me and said, ‘What feedback do you have for me? Tell me in front of my manager.’ That’s the behavior being mirrored in real time. When leaders model vulnerability and accountability, their teams feel safe enough to do the same—and that’s where real growth happens.

Watch the full interview.

Rob Sullivan contributes regularly to HRinsidr. Follow along for ongoing insights on leadership presence, communication, and professional development.

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